HBR IdeaCast

What Retail Legend Ron Johnson Learned from Apple’s Success and JCPenney’s Failure

September 29, 2026·32 min
Episode Description from the Publisher

How do you know when to trust your previous experience in a transformation environment, and how do you know when to listen, observe, and adapt? Ron Johnson helped create the Apple Store and transform Target into a design-forward retailer. But when he brought his approach to JCPenney, his transformation failed. He explains why leaders shouldn't rely too heavily on data when they're trying to create something that hasn't been done before, how Steve Jobs used patience and diverse perspectives to drive innovation, and why great customer experiences depend on empowering employees to solve problems one customer at a time. Johnson also reflects on his experience at JCPenney, where he moved too quickly and underestimated how deeply employees and other stakeholders were invested in the company's existing way of doing business. He shares what he would do differently today—and why listening may be one of the most important skills a leader can develop. Johnson is the author of Shop Different: How Retail Revealed Apple's Genius.

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