Can Math Save Journalism?: Julia Angwin on Proof, Power, and Amazon's Algorithm

In this conversation we chat with Julia Angwin — Pulitzer Prize-winning journalist, founder of Proof News, and former Wall Street Journal and ProPublica reporter — to make the case that journalism should function more like mathematical proof than anecdote.We cover how Angwin's team at The Markup used a decision-tree model to prove Amazon was favoring its own products in search results by an 8-to-1 margin — a finding the House Antitrust Committee later cited when referring Amazon to the DOJ for possible perjury. We dig into her "ingredients label" approach to reporting at Proof News (hypothesis, sample size, techniques, limitations), the difference between mathematical proof and the scientific method, and why she thinks control over algorithmic media is now the central battleground for authoritarian power. She also unpacks her new book on resisting authoritarianism, built from interviews with dissidents worldwide, including the "Swiss cheese" model of personal security and why perfectionism is dangerous in a crisis. Chapters09:50 Proof News: A New Era in Journalism19:56 Data-Driven Investigations: A Case Study30:02 The Future of Journalism and AI32:53 The Evolution of Search Rankings35:06 The Role of Algorithms in Information Access36:41 Fighting Authoritarianism Through Journalism44:52 Community Resistance Against Authoritarianism48:33 The Dangers of Perfectionism in Resistance51:26 Declaring a Position in Journalism56:25 The Importance of Math in Modern Society Julia Angwin's book, “On Courage” (https://amzn.to/448G8kY)Follow Julia Angwin onX (https://x.com/JuliaAngwin/)Bluesky (https://bsky.app/profile/juliaangwin.com) Proof News (https://www.proofnews.org/)Follow Breaking Math onSubstack (https://breakingmath.substack.com/)X (https://x.com/breakingmathpod)Instagram (https://www.instagram.com/breakingmathmedia/)Bluesky (https://bsky.app/profile/breakingmath.bsky.social)Website (https://www.breakingmath.io/)YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/@BreakingMathPod)Follow Noah onInstagram (https://www.instagram.com/profnoahgian/)X (https://x.com/ProfNoahGian)Follow Autumn onX (https://x.com/1autumn_leaf)Instagram (https://www.instagram.com/1autumnleaf/)email: breakingmathpodcast@gmail.com